CS or Game specific

Discussion in 'I wanna be a Game Programmer' started by TyPR124, Feb 15, 2010.

  1. EvaUnit02

    EvaUnit02 Apocalypse inducing not-robot suicidal mother One Of Us

    I'm a little bit of a math nerd, heh. Even if it had no practical application, I probably would have still done it. That said, I personally think it has been immensely helpful in my career.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010
  2. LHS

    LHS Lurker Not From Round Here

    I'd say Math or Physics. CS is the Game Development of 20 years ago - a bit more reputable (CS schools don't run stupid commercials) but the idea is the same: teach things a trade school is supposed to do under disguise of higher education.
     
  3. Recurse

    Recurse Rabidly intolerant One Of Us

    No that it really matters but the link is: www.nottingham.ac.uk/ugstudy/modules.php?code=000319&mod_year=1

    A thousand times this. A good university with lots of other interesting students, extra-curricula activities and stimulating teachers would always be better even if the course doesn't look as interesting on paper as another course at a bad university.

    Having a good time at university shouldn't get in the way of getting a good education. At the risk of sounding English - you shouldn't miss out on a good drinking session just because you think that it's not the done thing. You will never have another chance to enjoy life to such an extent unless you win the lottery.
     
  4. evilwill

    evilwill Lurker Not From Round Here

    If you want to be a programmer i'd say maths, physics or computer science over any other degree, and if you don't do CS make sure you do some subsids in CS. Also make sure you as much C++ as possible!
     
  5. eldercaddy

    eldercaddy Lurker Not From Round Here

    I'll go for getting CS degree. :deadcrab:
     
  6. fnord

    fnord Advanced Troll One Of Us

    Looks like I'm a bit late to this party, however, I'm going to go off on a limb and say it doesn't make a huge difference.

    There are plenty of people in the industry from game dev schools, and plenty of people in the industry who have CS degrees.

    Game Dev schools are of varying quality, there is a large difference between Digipen and Westwood. However, CS programs are basically Java vocational schools these days. So in terms of quality of education, I really don't think there is a clear winner.

    When I interview people, I don't care where the interviewee went to school. I'm much more interested in the persons work, and whether or not they know what they are doing.
     
  7. camomilk

    camomilk Troll One Of Us

    I have to agree with the "get a good degree" bit. Whether it comes from a uni or a game school doesn't make much difference.

    Also for game programming make sure you learn basic linear algebra like the back of your hand: points, vectors, matrices, dot products, cross products. At DigiPen we had this pounded in over and over again, that's one advantage over many unis.
     
  8. bhzuna

    bhzuna Lurker Not From Round Here

    best focus

    For what it's worth I've been hiring game programmers for 3 years and we typically hire CS degrees. The base and foundation you pick up are important; why not do a minor in Math or something else software related that will help you stay challenged.

    Also, someone else mentioned it but it's worthwhile restating. A completed degree is one thing, but when I ask people for samples and they send me a link to their site of things they've been working on "to stay creative" ...that is the best delivery of their skill set vs just a resume and a degree.

    Show me what you can do. I'm not as interested in the level of complexity but more in the care and passion that people show on their website. Also, different programs or links to showcase what you are learning and what you have a hobby in definitely help. Turns into a "show me" presentation vs forcing my developers to ask you irrelevant questions b/c they aren't sure of your chops.
     
  9. Brian Beuken

    Brian Beuken Boring Old Fart One Of Us

    yes..most game courses are shit....but not all...please, I am trying so hard to not spit at the lack of info...I know most are shit, I interviewed many graduates from them who were not worth it...which is why I choose to work in the education side of things to make a difference along with a bunch of other like minded people..They are not all shit.

    ok here's the bottom line...if you want to be trained to work at a games company, you do need specific skills...I don't doubt a CS or SE degree will be a good foundation and even give you chances outside of the games industry, but if you want to really work in games...find a good course...one that has real game industry teacher, one that puts its interns into game companies, ones where the graduates go to games companies...

    here are the places we send interns and graduates.......and we've only been going 5 years....

    Or you can get an internship at a bank/insurance company crunching numbers?

    www.igad.nl for info.

    some examples of where our people end up.
    National

    Codeglue / Unknown project [Rotterdam, NL]
    Eximion / Kalydo engine [Eindhoven, NL]
    Guerilla Games / Killzone 3 / Unannounced project / Killzone 4 [Amsterdam, NL]
    Nixxes / Deus Ex: Human revolution [Utrecht, NL]
    Playlogic Game Factory / Fairytale Fights / Eyepet / Eyepet move [Breda, NL]
    RealGames (Zylom Games) / Emily's Childhood Memories [Eindhoven, NL]
    Ronimo Games / Swords 'n Soldiers / Unannounced project [Utrecht, NL]
    Sticky Studios / Suckerpunch (web) / Green Lantern (web) / Nickelodeon (Unanounced/ web) [Utrecht, NL]
    The Art of Games / Unknown project [Eindhoven, NL]
    Triumph Studios / Unannounced project [Delft, NL]
    Vanguard Games / Gattling Gears / Unannounced project [Amsterdam, NL]
    Vertigo Games / Unknown project [Rotterdam, NL]
    VStep / Ship Simulator Extremes [Rotterdam, NL]


    International

    DICE / Battlefield 3 [Stockholm, SE]
    Ubisoft / Rayman Origins [Montpellier, FR]
    Funcom / Anarchy Online [Oslo, NO]
    Codemasters / Unknown project [Lower Farm House Stoney Thorpe, UK]
    Lionhead / Unannounced project [Guildford, UK]
    Outso / Unknown project [Nottingham, UK]
    GRID-vfx / Unknown project [Gent, BE]

    and of course they work on great game concepts from the 1st year on, get to use actual Console Dev kits and get told by old farts like me that they are probably making the biggest mistake of their lives getting into games, but if you really really want to..here's how you do it...or words to that effect.

    Its true...your game development (note development, not design) degree won't be much use outside the games industry...but why go for CS and SE when you want to write games???


    anyway.....trumpet blown...over and out.
     
  10. MickWest

    MickWest Cowboy Programmer Staff Member Moderator

    Personally I'd recommend you focus on getting as much math as possible. It's one thing you're less likely to get good at after the degree. This might be your only opportunity.
     
  11. PositronicBrain

    PositronicBrain Grand high lord of things One Of Us

    Don't bother with University. Teach yourself. If you have the natural ability, passion and want to learn then you'll be able to code a good demo yourself. Then use that to get a job. Then get three years advantage on your peers who thought University was going to teach them something. A University isn't going to teach you passion, natural ability and the drive to learn. With those three key things you don't need University, you need information and luckily enough good quality information is much easier to find these days.
     
  12. T-Shirt Wearing Dork

    T-Shirt Wearing Dork 3D spoiled my 2D One Of Us

    Yeah, you're kind of right but unfortunately in the world of today where the entrance into many a game job usually goes through the HR department the first thing those people tend to look at is your work experience or if you don't have any of that, they look at your education.
    If you don't have a relevant qualification these days a lot of the time you'll get thrown on the ignore pile.

    I'd do the CS degree as it'll cover more of your bases should you decide after a while that you want to work in the "Real" world after games, or if games turns out to be not what you thought it would.
    Plus it's always handy to know how the other half works, also while you're doing the CS degree get stuck into a Mod community, do something with Source, UDK, or the like. Dabble with mobile programming, you can easily get yourself set up for Android or iOS dev for pretty much nothing, and having an game on your phone as a demo to show when you do walk in for that all important first job interview will make you stand out.
    We still get the Demo submitted on CD/DVD but when someone shows us something running on their own handset it's great. Especially as we're a bloody mobile developer. So you know you're going to have a load of work ahead of you, but use your head and if your passionate about it you'll no doubt do well.
     
  13. MrCranky

    MrCranky Bitter and Twisted One Of Us

    While that might be passable advice for someone who is a) super-talented and b) would only ever consider working in games (for the rest of their life), it's harmful advice for everyone else.

    My advice would be to do the CS degree, because if you ever want or need to work anywhere outside of games, you'll need it. Even if you want to work in games now, you might not want to in five years time, and if you don't do the degree now, you'd have to do it later instead. It's a foolish person that deliberately limits their options.

    PositronicBrain is right though, in that a university isn't going to teach you passion or ability. A straight CS degree probably won't even teach you the level of coding expertise you need to get into the games industry. All of that you'd have to get yourself. And sadly, it would probably have to be on your own time, over and above the work on your degree. If you think that's going to be difficult for you, then maybe the games degree would be better, because you'll at least be getting relevant learning during the day on the degree. If you want to move into regular software later, a masters degree in CS should be enough to satisfy the regular software world that you're employable, and would only be an additional year of time.
     
  14. PositronicBrain

    PositronicBrain Grand high lord of things One Of Us

    I have to disagree. A games programmer has a lot of transferable skills to industry. They don't need a degree once they have a few years experience under their belt. The experience working in a company is worth more than a degree.
     
  15. Anthony Flack

    Anthony Flack tedious space wanker One Of Us

    I guess one thing that doing a games course has going for it is, you will be making games, and therefore you will graduate with a portfolio of games you have worked on to show people.
     
  16. MrCranky

    MrCranky Bitter and Twisted One Of Us

    Is that based on experience applying to non-software companies, or on your assessment of games programmers' employability? And while experience in a company might be worth more than a degree, that assessment is generally made on people who have got both, not one or the other. However yes, the longer you work, the less relevant your degree is in comparison.

    Every games developer I know who's switched to regular software has complained about a stigma attached to their gamedev experience. When they have found work, it's been in a place with very specific software needs, that valued their experience (e.g. financial transactions who need low latency, or visualisation companies who need the high performance 3D knowledge).

    I know games programming is harder than regular software; you know it's harder; but that doesn't affect the outlook of the hiring managers at software companies whose only knowledge of the games industry has come from those Westwood College adverts about 'tightening up the graphics on level 3'.
     
  17. PositronicBrain

    PositronicBrain Grand high lord of things One Of Us

    It is based on my experience of being hired by banks and security companies with my games background and also recruiting programmers.

    I never use education or lack of it when choosing who to interview. I look at real world coding projects mentioned in the CV.
     
  18. MrCranky

    MrCranky Bitter and Twisted One Of Us

    Nor do I. But that doesn't make us representative of the vast majority of hiring managers out there.

    Suffice to say then that there's anecdotal evidence both ways, and anyone out there looking to make this choice and reading this should be aware of the potential downsides of choosing to not get a degree at all.
     
  19. PositronicBrain

    PositronicBrain Grand high lord of things One Of Us

    I wouldn't want to work for a company that only accepted a CV if it had a degree since that demonstrates poor recruitment selection so the company is also likely to be on the crap side.
    If not having a degree means a crap company passes over the CV of an obviously experienced programmer then I call that a win.
     
  20. IFW

    IFW Not allowed to say NFTS are shit One Of Us

    Are you crazy?!?!

    GO to university - it'll be the most fun 3 or 4 years of your life!

    I didnt learn a thing about programming at uni - taught myself all i needed to know. HOWEVER, it did teach me how to live life....

    Go with CS, that way when you realise what this industry is really like - you have an escape plan. Also after doing uni you may have a girfriend, experienced life, had fun - and realised that you dont want to do this afterall!
     
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