redemption from a 2:2?

The problem with studying computer software engineering is there's always something more interesting 'Like coding little games instead of that algorithms and datastructures assignment that is due by the end of the week.

Yup - I fell into that trap hook, line and sinker and as a result I'm the proud(?) owner of a 2:2, although technically about half a percent away from that magic dividing line but that makes no difference. I did redeem myself by taking the graphics modules that had 'code a game in 2/3D' as assignments to at least attempt to turn things in my favour though. I've always been told a good demo will triumph but to be honest my example code sits on a webserver and the replies say that it's not up to their standards. My apache logs show me checking the link, an occasional visit by the google and yahoo bots and... well... nobody else really. Makes me a tad suspicious of that response really. It's the non-responses that concern me though.

Other feedback I've had from interviews involved ripping me apart for 'not being dedicated to software development as a career because you worked for an insurance company during this period' (yep - to pay for my degree) and being told that 'coding experience only counts if you're sat in an office writing for cash. You only get one year by my rules'. And then there's the last interview I did where I nailed the programming test and then got my ass handed to me in a load of logic and reasoning puzzles.

Having a tech support job on there that is really the IT equivalent of McDonalds doesn't help really. I'm guessing at this point my CV is a bit of a disaster and the key factor in my demo code sitting bored and lonely on a webserver.

Given the current state of things how redeemable is the situation exactly? Surely someone wants to give a C++/ARM coder a bit of a break?

 

I got a 2:2 and I was able to pull up my socks and get a game programming job.

The good news is that all graduates know nothing. Relatively speaking. That's why your years of experience are based upon your professional years, not academic. You're in pretty much the same position as people who got a first, except you're lucky enough to know right now that you're going to have to work hard to get a job and not presume your precious degree will get you a job eventually.

You're sounding a bit sorry for yourself and putting blame outside of your control. This shouldn't be the case at all. It's all down to you and how hard you're willing to work to get to where you want to be.

Suck it up and improve yourself.

If you fail the tests, then you need to learn the things you failed.

If you're told your portfolio isn't up to standard, then you should be looking to improve it.

If you need a programming job, you should be looking everywhere for one. No job is too small when you're starting. It's the only way you can really break the catch 22 of needing experience to get a job. That's how I got in. I started doing contract work for peanuts, then working for a tiny start-up and then ended up with a decent games job later down the line.

To be honest, I prefer people to take that route rather than fall into a job straight out of university. Fresh graduates take things for granted.



Also, if an interviewer brings up your working for an insurance company then they're idiots and you don't want to work there.

 

Care to link to your website/CV? People may offer feedback.

A Desmond is by no means the end of the world, I only got a 2.1, and in fact I've never been asked what I actually got as a final result (I was offered a job shortly before graduating but they never checked that I even graduated successfully afaik).

Non-responses are not a surprise, bluntly. Apart from the offer that I got before graduating, I got one other interview, and that was it - out of sixty plus applications. It happens. A lot of places don't hire graduates on principle as any graduate will take time to get up to speed and if you're a team of five, having 20% of your team not really working at full productivity yet is a killer. As a result, the bigger studios (in the UK, Codemasters, Blitz, Rare, EA, Sony, etc) tend to be most willing to hire graduates... though be warned, several of those companies have a reputation more along the lines of exploiting graduates than giving them a career. You pays your money you takes your choice... anyway, it does get better. After 1/60 when I graduated, my next two job searches five and six years later garnered me something like 5/6 and 17/18, iirc.

The important thing is to keep plugging away, keep listening to feedback, keep learning in your own initiative and in your own time. (There's an active thread in the private forums right now bemoaning the standards of education in University right now, and IME graduates are mostly not up to much; so, as long as you are capable, you'll stand out even with a 2.2; if you genuinely do know how to write C++ to a reasonable level, you'll instantly be better placed than 90% of other candidates; just be warned that it's easy to think you know C++ but actually don't know it at all, I know I was in that situation). Write games, on your own or as part of a team with other enthusiasts, and put together a portfolio - I can't emphasise this (the writing part, not so much the portfolio part tbh) enough. And hopefully that bit will be fun anyway.

Anyone that rejects you on the basis that you "failed to show passion" by (shock!) taking a non-games job when no games jobs were available probably uses "passion" to mean "works 16 hours a day 7 days a week and is easily exploited", so count yourself lucky you didn't end up there quite honestly.

And then, if all else fails, after you've given it your absolute best shot - if that's still not enough, ask yourself: did you really try hard enough? Were you really good enough? Some people just don't, or aren't. Hell, even if you know you are... some people are just unlucky. It's not the end of the world... programming games is just a job at the end of the day (one that isn't super-well paid compared to other fields, though it is enjoyable and rewarding), and in some ways it ruins the enjoyment of playing games because you've trained yourself to see the bugs instead of the fun. What's the absolute worst-case scenario? You get a job doing something else, and still get to play games and make games as a hobby. Hopefully you can still do better than that if it's something you want, but your 2.2 probably won't be what's holding you up.

 

Yup, I agree with pretty much what Bitterman said there.

I pay very little attention to actual degree grades when vetting a CV, and more to what was on the courses that were studied and example code/applications. Someone who has obviously poured their heart into doing mods and non course work stuff gets more attention than the guy who has just submitted the best bits of his course work as examples.

So don't get hung up on your grade (my undergraduate degree is an Ordinary, not Honours of any description)

 

Okay - I know my original post was more of a rant looking for nuggets of wisdom than an actual question, but thanks for the replies.

Which is exactly what I'd like to do, only a wall of silence doesn't indicate to me which parts are lacking so I'm not sure where I should be headed at the moment. To be honest given my code is sat unlooked at I think I have to deduce that my CV is the big turnoff at the moment and attack that one with a complete and total rewrite.

Are there any good examples out there of what a good gamedev CV should look like layout and content-wise I could look at for inspiration? I know at the end of the day the content and experience has to be mine and mine alone but I'd at least like to have some idea of how to get my point across...

 

i would imagine many people on here (myself included) wouldn't mind vetting your CV as it stands... is it online?

 

Sorry, I only skimmed the first post, but I did what you did (used a software engineering degree as an excuse to make games, teach myself about game design, barely scraping through with a 2:2, only due to a self motivated third year project which scored me a first) and NOW I'M A FAMOUSE GAEM DESIGNAR/POGROMMAR IN SPAEC.

That you make small games is a really good thing. Making small games and having a 1st in your degree would be great, but seems like an unholy amount of work. What you have to do now is be smart about how you sell yourself to companies. Keep making demos. Keep them short and sweet to show that you know how to finish. Let your proficiencies shine brighter than that piece of paper you got.

It might look bleak at first, but just keep at it and the opening that you thought was a crack will grow and grow. Don't necessarily expect to get into the development studios you'd ideally like to, straight out of university. Do expect that even small gigs can improve your chances of getting the next job, and the next job after that.

Above all, never lose the passion you have for working on games for the sake of working on them. That says a lot more (to me, at least) than working toward an arbitrary set of standards in a degree. The industry is made of all sorts, but the people people like the most are the people who give a shit about making games.

Above all, listen to Bitterman. He knows what he is saying about that.

 

Thanks for the pro responses here.

I've been passionate about games development since I was young and dabbling on 8-bit machines.

I am an experienced software developer and want to get into the games industry, but keep bumping into the 'no INDUSTRY experience' barrier. Unfortunately, internships aren't a possibility for me given that I left formal education a long time ago and have a family to support.

In my programming career, I have mostly worked on confidential internal systems for various companies which makes it impossible to showcase my coding ability, so I am currently working on a portfolio of sorts - building a few small games.

Other than that, is there anything else that I could do to make myself a viable candidate?

 

What companies have you been applying to? A good first step is to join smaller devs (start-ups, mobile, etc) who can't be as choosy. You'd take a pay drop, but odds are going into games that would be taking a drop anyway.

Otherwise, just crack on making games in your spare time...and focus on enjoying it. Don't worry too much about getting a games job off the back of them.

 

Might sound annoying, but a company that won't employ a programmer with years of programming experience just because that experience wasn't on games probably isn't the company you want to work for.

Most people do come straight into games from Uni, it's true, but that's only because once you've been paid a real salary, games looks less appealing. I've worked with plenty of people who did non-games programming first and they were no different to anybody who'd worked in games all along (some rubbish, most OK, some very good).

So, yeah. Portfolio, code samples, good CV, you'll get an interview eventually (if you apply to the right places) and then it's up to you.

 

When you are applying for a job requiring game industry experience keep in mind that you are probably not the only candidate and your competition does have credits for shipped games vs. your possible collection of small games. Depending on what you have been doing your programming experience might be completely irrelevant for the games industry too. E.g. you can be a stellar Java programmer writing the most amazing SQL queries or whatever is considered cool in the "enterprise" and be oblivious to the elementary stuff like binary, pointers, memory access issues etc. I'd try to apply for non-game side positions, like build or tools programmer.

 

Thanks to everyone for the helpful advice. I've been programming since the late 80s, so the elementary stuff is well known - you had to know it back then. [Ahh... mode 13 flashbacks...]

While the pay may not be as good, its far more satisfying to work on a game that I'll most likely play myself, than on a massive business system that I have no inclination to use. I will always continue to make games on my own regardless - it is something I enjoy.

This seems to be good advice, and one of the biggest reasons why I want to get into the industry.

Thanks again, all.

 

Well thanks for your replies and offers to look at my CV - Sorry I didn't respond sooner. It's not that I'm ungrateful or anything, but I had a couple of interview processes going and all the associated hoops to jump through...

...and I ended up getting one of them. Okay - it's not gamedev, but it is sort of related and does involve doing stuff that would be useful if I wanted to head in that direction further down the line, so I'm plenty happy with the result there.

Either way I get paid to write code and I can pay the rent now

 

Congrats! Hope it all works out for you.

 

My CV was just screenshots and URL's to four different games I'd made myself that I was selling online, my phone number, email address and name.I didn't even DO a degree in computer science, and my only qualification in the area was an evening classes course in advanced C.With me, at least, experience and practical ability to be a jack of all trades totally trumped academia. I was practically the only coder on the team not with a first from Oxford or Cambridge and I'm sure I was the only coder without a degree.So it can definitely be done. For context, this is me:www.cliffksi.com My CV got me a job at Elixir.

 

The experience bit is a tricky one. Over at indiegamer someone posted looking for work who was something like 23 years old and insisted they had 15 years experience.

I guess when you see experience what you want to see is applicable experience.

 

I agree.. I tend to count the years I've been programming (so since I was 7) which is quite a big number when considering my age, but that number is more for fun. I don't include it in CVs and in interviews if I mention it, it will be marked as such. It does count a little (in that if someone is passionate about computers for >15 years, they are likely to have picked up useful and interesting info tidbits along the way) but IMO it doesn't count as full time experience. I think if people want to say they've been active with the home scene a lot, they should say it clearly as such and limit the industry / full time experience (if they have proper experience from other industries). But that's just me .

 

Ok, I'll bite....
I'm new here (have to email in from work tomorrow), what the hell are the numbers?