Piracy will save us all?

[Floyd Patterson]

Wow, spam's a teenager now.

[IndustryFuckwit]

Originally Posted by haydxn
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snap. steam is fucking awesome, and anyone who hates it is a knobface.

THE ABOVE IS FACT

Just call me mr knobface from now on then.

Because steam is a cumbersome load of wank. Give me securom or starforce over that any day of the week.

I recently bought my first couple of steam games, and the hassle/time/etc i spent getting them.. i may as well have walked down the shops.

[blueeyedboy]

The problem with Steam, Securom, etc is they all take a traditional game that was designed for the package goods market and add new restrictions to it.

What we need to do is break free of the package goods business and build games for the online age. I mentioned Tiger Woods Online before. There is a demo here:
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. This is a game built from the ground up for the internet. I don't know how EA will charge or whether the business model they use will be successful; but from a technology point of view (no huge game to download and install before you can start playing - everything runs in a browser window) I think this is the direction we are heading.

[Callaghan]

I was going to start a seperate thread for this, but this one seems relevant enough and as a newbie, I could use the publicity this one already has. Here's how I feel about the direction of the industry, from the point of view of a customer and potential insider and is from a post I made as a customer in the steam forums, the reaction has been - despite the level of trolling on the steam forums - almost entirely in the affirmative.

There are many examples I could include over many big releases, that show the rather sad direction the games industry has taken in recent years. It is in no small part our fault - as a market we are generally very young and therefore not savvy to the nature of business and how it is almost entirely shaped by its customers demands; the fact that the product is often one of escapism and therefore apathy, does not help either. The result is that, for anyone who isn't intellectually bankrupt or at least has a modicum of appreciation for strategy and other things that are appreciated by many, the games being made are simply not good enough - they seem lazy, refurbished versions of the same old rubbish and the worst part is, we celebrate it as if it were something other than a money spinner.

In short, us gamers need to demand more, or expect to have less and less for our money with each release that these big developers so selflessly toil over for us *cough cough*. We are being ripped off, and everytime a 'fanboy' (read - adolescent devoid of any critical faculty) says something to the effect of 'be grateful that we have it at all', a genuine developer turns in his figurative grave.

These may seem like grand words for what many would disregard simply as and with the word 'games', but to me it is about something more in principle. In part it is about not letting an industry that I have so much interest in becoming like so many others; it is about making it clear to these companies that gamers aren't all intellectually bankrupt and willing to throw our money at any semblance of a product that they spew at us. Why should you care about this though? You just want to play a game and have fun, besides, games are your escape from the world of tiresome opinions and trivialities in general aren't they? It is exactly for that reason that I say that 'gamers', as much as I hate the term, need to stop supporting these huge companies as if they have your interests at heart, and realise that complaing DOES help, because if they can see that their customer base is really not satisfied with the general level of quality - if we do stand up and act like something other than ignorant adolescents who will gobble down anything they send our way then we will start seeing a marked improvement in the games they make for us, simple as that.

To cite one example - take 'Operation Flashpoint - Dragon Rising' - this is one of a new breed of games whose identity is not determined by the game itself, but by a pre-established brand image created by huge amounts of marketing. What are we buying in reality? A half-finished engine with next to no content at all, the bare bones of a game that requires us to spend twice that amount again on 'DLC' before we have anything worth playing. 'DLC' is fast becoming the norm, and is an excuse to develop a game, take out the best bits, and then sell them back to you at extortionate prices. It is like buying a book and finding that it only has half the pages included, forcing you to go back to the shop when you have read all that they have so graciously sold you to buy the rest of the book from the shop owner who knew you would return for it, and knows that he can therefore charge whatever he wants for it. They can paint it under a veneer of marketing terminology all they like, it is all robbery. Another more relevant example is the marketing surrounding the 'destruction' in Bad Company 2 - they marketed it as if it were genuine full damage modelling as that almost found in Red Faction - Guerilla, with buildings that collapse as they so deliberately show in all the videos - the reality is rather disappointing - rather simplistic and unlocalised changes to the building model, disguised with some basic destruction fx and animations which you had advertised as 'Players can now take down entire buildings'. Where are these buildings EA as I have yet to find them, are you even aware of the concept of false advertising or do you simply have so little respect for your customers that you willingly display your lack of faith in their intelligence with each and every marketing campaign you so ruthlessly (and incompetently) pursue. EA take note, not all of us are mentally retarded, we know how this stuff works, some of us even know when we are being ripped off and some of those number are actually willing to do something about it, it all starts with the common dialogue. Please, either tone down your marketing to something that doesn't cause mass disappointment with every release or hire an executive who actually cares about the products they put out, then they might start hiring some talented developers and we might actually have a game that we can admire, let alone be satisfied with. Hey, I can dream.

If you have read this far then congratulations, it means you are of the better breed of gamer, one who has a little more invested in his pastimes than a simple desire for instant gratification. So if you disagree, don't simply insult me, tell me why I am wrong. The worst thing is not being wrong, it is not having an opinion.

Discuss.

Maybe that reads a little dramatically, that's partially the point, it is not easy to rouse the young to care about something. As for piracy and the original theme of this thread - I pirate games that I dont think are worth buying, the ones I wouldn't buy anyway. If they then live up to my standard, and I feel that the game was made with real passion and artistic sensibility, then I gladly buy it. (I think I own around five copies of Operation Flashpoint now from having lent it to people and generally needing spare copies). If its crap, they wont buy it, shouldnt be complicated.

[LHS]

Callaghan, the simple truth is that games with copy protection, games with DLC bring in more money. If you don't like it - find another hobby, where you will be with majority and developers will cater to your tastes too.

[Myrkur]

Originally Posted by LHS
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Callaghan, the simple truth is that games with copy protection, games with DLC bring in more money. If you don't like it - find another hobby, where you will be with majority and developers will cater to your tastes too.

Perhaps this is true, but personally I avoid some games because of DRM (or I should say bad DRM) Spore was a good example, I was very interested in that game but avoided it like the Plague because of the militant DRM, another good example is Settlers 7 I love this series but I’m leery of buying it because of some nasty reports of bad/dysfunctional DRM. As far as DLC goes I love it, but only when it’s not at an additional cost. I respect any developer that extends there games or improves a pone them in any way post release. Best example I can think of offhand is Grid Defence, they added a lot to that game it was a very nice surprise. Incidentally It made me love the game even more and I therefore sing it’s High praise to anyone who will listen, That good advertizing, it also insures me as a return customer for any other titles Hidden Path works on.

Cheers

[MegaGreenbean]

Originally Posted by LHS
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Callaghan, the simple truth is that games with copy protection, games with DLC bring in more money.

Interesting. Do you have access to a study that proves this truth? It's literally the million dollar question.

[frobisher]

Originally Posted by MegaGreenbean
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Interesting. Do you have access to a study that proves this truth? It's literally the million dollar question.

On the DLC front, Microsoft have shown figures (available to those who've attended the Gamesfest events) that titles with DLC do generate significantly more income than ones without (things like Rockband being extreme examples).

[LHS]

Originally Posted by MegaGreenbean
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Interesting. Do you have access to a study that proves this truth? It's literally the million dollar question.

I don't think "literally" means what you think it does (unless you are offering me a million dollars to answer your question). But I will answer it for free being a generous dude that I am: I am not aware of such a study. If you really were "One of us" you'd had access to the actual facts yourself.

[LHS]

Originally Posted by Myrkur
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Best example I can think of offhand is Grid Defence, they added a lot to that game it was a very nice surprise. Incidentally It made me love the game even more and I therefore sing it’s High praise to anyone who will listen, That good advertizing, it also insures me as a return customer for any other titles Hidden Path works on.Cheers

Indeed a very good example. I wonder how many people have heard of that game and the developer, how many bought it or other Hidden Path' titles?

[MegaGreenbean]

Originally Posted by LHS
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I don't think "literally" means what you think it does (unless you are offering me a million dollars to answer your question). But I will answer it for free being a generous dude that I am: I am not aware of such a study. If you really were "One of us" you'd had access to the actual facts yourself.

"Literally" means there's money involved in the truth. This is something we've discussed more than once here in TCE and there's no 100% consensus - it's not "the simple truth" to anyone. No doubt plenty of publishers have internal data they can't release and believe in - and most people are not privy, but the "simple truth" is no-one as of yet has published a proper controlled study (for example by releasing a game with and without DRM or copy protection in separate similar countries or markets), or if they have, it hasn't come up here yet.

This is why I was asking if you could add anything to the table given the strength of your convictions.

[LHS]

Originally Posted by MegaGreenbean
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"Literally" means there's money involved in the truth. This is something we've discussed more than once here in TCE and there's no 100% consensus - it's not "the simple truth" to anyone. No doubt plenty of publishers have internal data they can't release and believe in - and most people are not privy, but the "simple truth" is no-one as of yet has published a proper controlled study (for example by releasing a game with and without DRM or copy protection in separate similar countries or markets), or if they have, it hasn't come up here yet.This is why I was asking if you could add anything to the table given the strength of your convictions.

Literally publishers don't give a flying duck about your consensus. Neither do I. If you believe that giving DLC for free brings more money than selling it or having your game on torrents somehow boosts sales - good for you.

[EvaUnit02]

Originally Posted by LHS
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Literally publishers don't give a flying duck about your consensus. Neither do I. If you believe that giving DLC for free brings more money than selling it or having your game on torrents somehow boosts sales - good for you.

First of all, Greenbean said there was not a consensus. He also didn't say whether he believes free DLC or pirated games increases revenue or not. In fact, in his very first post he suggested offering the first third of a game for free and paying for the remainder.

Perhaps these publishers you're referring to, and you, should care. As Greenbean said, there's a lot of money that is riding on whatever the truth is. It behooves us to do the proper study and science in order to figure it out rather than rely on gut feelings and emotional charge.

[MegaGreenbean]

Originally Posted by LHS
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Literally publishers don't give a flying duck about your consensus. Neither do I. If you believe that giving DLC for free brings more money than selling it or having your game on torrents somehow boosts sales - good for you.

To thread this together over the last few posts - you are basically saying - "as someone who is not-one-of-the-REAL-us I think your lack of consensus on TCE is unimportant, what matters is what people believe not what may be the truth".

My response to that is, well yes that's practical life, I'm sure people believe all sorts of things - it's often the problem - but what we do try to have is a vigorous open debate - where expressing the wrong idea isn't punishable by derision but a chance to see what sticks or not - I hadn't expected to need to don my thick skin for the public forums. As Eva has said, my colours are not pinned to any mast here; I'd like to know the data first and foremost to optimise the money making opportunities.

I see that you've had trouble with the entrance procedure here - but that's not because it's an arcane society of special merit or elitism - it's simply because the moderators are often overwhelmed with the backlog requests and have pretty much resorted to getting current members to vouch first. If you know anyone at Sony Santa Monica on TCE for example it might be worth getting them to pm one of the mods.

[LHS]

Originally Posted by EvaUnit02
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First of all, Greenbean said there was not a consensus.

Thank you, I read his message and completely agree with you. He indeed said there was not a consensus. Positively. Your point?

Originally Posted by MegaGreenbean
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To thread this together over the last few posts - you are basically saying - "as someone who is not-one-of-the-REAL-us I think your lack of consensus on TCE is unimportant, what matters is what people believe not what may be the truth".

Not quite. What matters is the money.